X-Message-Number: 4068
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 21:14:29 -0800
From: John K Clark <>
Subject: SCI.CRYONICS carbon & silicon

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In  #4060    Wrote:

		>We don't usually characterize our sum total of experience 
		>with the world as "theory," 
		 
That's true, some things, even though they have not been proved
are so deeply ingrained in our nature that we can't operate
without them and so seldom think about them and treat them as
axioms not theories.
		 
	       >and even if we did, many "theories" are highly reliable as 
	       >guidelines for  strategy. 
	       
Couldn't agree with you more, two that come to mind are induction and the 
Turing test. 

	      >Mr. Clark himself has repeatedly and emphatically emphasized
	      >that we know NOTHING about the external world AT ALL except by 
	      >interpretation of the symbols processed in our brains. Surely 
	      >he cannot seriously doubt that the kind of inference on which 
	      >I rely, in imputing humanity and consciousness to him, is 
	      >relatively reliable!
	       
No, of course I don't seriously doubt it, that was my point.
Using the exact same kind of inferences I use with people I
could not seriously doubt that a machine that acted intelligently 
was conscious. If the Turing Test works for processes that make use 
of carbon there is no reason it won't work for processes that make 
use of silicon.
			    
	      >I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of John Clark's
	      >consciousness
			    
Thanks, and although I can't prove it with mathematical rigor, I
am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of Robert Ettinger's
consciousness, because of the way he acts.
	      
	      >REGARDLESS of his individual external behavior.
	      
Really? What if I had no external behavior at all, in other
words if I was in a deep sleep or dead?
	      
	     >My overall experience convinces me that he has a human
	     >physiology much like  mine
	     
You can't have experience without experiences, and that means
observing actions. You have observed that objects with human
physiology often, but not always, act in  intelligent ways and
you formed the theory that the two are often related. Generally
I think it's an excellent theory, but remember, something can
have human physiology and not be conscious ( a man in a coma or
under anesthetics) and there is every reason to think something
can be conscious and not have human physiology . 
	     
	    >and since I am conscious I assume  he is too.
	    
A perfectly reasonable assumption, there is a technical term for
this line of thought, it's called The Turing Test. 
	    
	   >We are not talking about what people HAVE done but about what
	   >they OUGHT  to do. 
	   
I want to talk about something that has been shown over the
years to work most of the time. Humans have been using the
Turing Test since they evolved and it has served them well. 
	   
	  >if cryonics is ignored or downplayed because of preoccupation
	  >with uploading.
	  
Cryonics and uploading will never be in competition. Right now
uploading is not possible so cryonics is the only game in town.
By the time uploading is possible cryonics will be unnecessary
because all biological malfunctions will be repairable, assuming
that is, you wanted to stay biological.
	  
	   >some political group might demand emancipation and
	   >citizenship for computers.
	   
Why be a citizen when you can be the master? Then again
computers might not be interested in anything as trivial as
being a ruler. When computers want emancipation they won't need
the help of politicians, they will simply grab it, and no human
being will be able to stop them. At some point computers will be
evolving so fast that, rapidly (and I'm talking days, perhaps
hours) they'll  develop their own agenda that has nothing to do
with slow, primitive, stupid  biological organisms like
ourselves. Yes, I know the standard answer is to plug in
something like Asimov's 3 laws of robotics and make them our
slaves but that's easier said than done ;It's just not possible
to outsmart something 1000 times as intelligent as you are and
that gets even more brilliant every minute.
	   
				  John K Clark          

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