X-Message-Number: 4935
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 11:50:37
From: John de Rivaz <>
Subject: Subject: The Re-creationists
This article was sent to Longevity Report recently. Its author has been a
long term subscriber yet he has been extremely critical of cryonics, life
extension and even the American way of life.
Several readers of Longevity Report have joined the Cryonics Institute as
suspension members, and it is clear that this man, a London barrister
(lawyer who is allowed to speak in the high court), has given it some
thought even if his conclusions are a little off what most of the readers
of this list consider sensible.
It is clear from this article that he is pondering his ultimate
destination, and it is unlikely, in view of his occupation, that cost is
a prime reason for rejection even though he seems to discuss it at some
length both here and elsewhere.
If anyone has any comments that may encourage him to consider cryonics
more carefully, then please let me have them either through this list or
directly via email.
The Re-creationists
by Brian W. Haines
I have before me a pamphlet headed Censored in Great Britain. The title
of the pamphlet is The Scientific Proof of Survival After Death by
Michael Roll. I have spoken to Mr. Roll and he is very lucid, sensible
and well educated. Recently he gave a lecture at the University of London
upon his ideas. Naturally I was very interested and asked him to let me
have his proofs which he promised to do. It seemed to me he may have
established the connection required by the Cryonic movement to sustain
the belief that there is a sound medical basis to preserve the apparent
dead for future revival.
It is possible my reading of the literature provided by Mr. Roll was too
hasty, or too ill understood to extract from it the proofs he claims it
contained. It is true he gives complete bibliographies and quotes
extensively from various authorities, unfortunately from my point of view
all his main authorities are long since dead. They are speaking from
beyond the grave as it were. A point perhaps that philosophically
indicates some degree of survival but not I imagine the practical
scientific proof the average person is expecting.
In brief as I understand it his argument is that when we die the
essential life force is still hovering around in the form of electric
charges in the nature of protons, neutrons or some similar sub-atomic
particles, and that these sub-atomic particles contain within them the
essence of the life that directed the form of the carcass that is now in
the process of disintegration. It is not a matter of any religious
belief, it is a fact of life that life itself goes on. It is not clear to
me whether Mr. Roll is saying the whole world is a mere collection of
electrical charges or whether there is some form of essential life force
within a particular form of electrical charge. I rather fancy the latter
as he goes on to say that these life forces can be contacted through
mediums, which is where we come back to some old friends. The mediums he
talks of are the familiar persons who hold seances and conjure up the
dead.
I have had the good fortune to meet some of these mediums who hold to
these views. They claim they can and do materialise people to such a
degree you can shake hands with them or hug them as you will. Apparently
the dead are quite keen after they have re-materialised to enjoy some
bodily contact. Once again the mediums are perfectly since, they have
ordinary homes, eat meals and are apparently quite sane and well
educated. Yet once again they talk only, I have yet to see a full
demonstration.
Cryonics and these Mediums have much in common. They both wish to
re-create life. Not any life, but particular lives, lives of known and
named people.
Now I personally have a problem. My father and mother are both dead, so
is my brother, my uncle my grandfather and a whole batch of assorted
relatives whose names I cannot recall. They are well and truly dead
having for the most part descended into the regions of the flames by the
good offices of the local crematorium. There is nothing left of them, and
so far, and I say so far because we must accept that all things are
possible, they have never come back in any form whatsoever. I assume for
the sake of my own sane peace of mind, they were well and truly dead
before we let them burn.
The Cryonic approach tends to suggest my relatives were actually still
alive in some form and the life force was merely dormant, [but rapidly
ebbing away unless something is done - ed] the mediums on the other hand
accept a carcass death with the real person floating off in some etheric
cloud of sub-atomic particles. Naturally I am somewhat worried, I nearly
died recently during the course of an operation. I have a very great deal
at stake here. The only problem is there was little I could have done
about it except now speculate upon the issues as they affect the world.
As will be apparent I did not die. I was neither frozen and brought back
to life, nor did I return from the grave in spirit form. I revived in due
order with a massive blood transfusion. I was never at any time conscious
of being near death nor indeed of being anything other than somewhat
unwell. My main preoccupation was with the truly disgusting food provided
by the hospital and wondering whether I would stave to death before I
could get out and have a decent meal. It crossed my mind you got better
food in prison, and the only real difference between hospital and prison
was they no longer tortured you in prison, whereas the pain inflicted in
the name of healing reminds one of the medieval notion that you must
drive out the evil spirits.
This difference between prison and hospital is not so fanciful as may it
sound. One deals, theoretically, with curing the mind while the other
deals with curing the physical ailment. In some ways this brings the two
strands of life experience together. The conscious body and the awareness
of the conscious mind. If one dies can the other exist without it is the
big question.
One of the great weaknesses of all the religious systems is the
concentration upon the after-life without much thought for an earlier
existence. My medium had little to offer upon the subject. My question
directed as to the location of the life spirit prior to inhabiting my
present body was met with blank looks. The theory of the Cryonic
suspension system does not address the subject at all so far as I am
aware. The real difficulty from the world population aspect is that both
will fill the world with more and more lives. Of course this is not an
impossibility, but the time must eventually come when the world is
actually full; the argument that we can then go on into outer space is no
solution. This is akin to the evasion of some supporters of the UFO
movement that life came to this earth from alien space ships. It answers
no questions at all, it does not solve the dilemma of whether it is
possible to die or not.
Does it matter. Of course it does. Cryonic suspension requires you spend
a lot of your money now in the hope you can be revived later. If the
money is being wasted you could have a lot more comfortable time while
you are on this earth providing for a peaceful old age instead. Or you
could invest your money in alternative health ideas which may extend your
active life. The trouble is that by allowing your relatives to bury you
in the ground or putting you in the furnace is tantamount to committing
suicide if you believe that the life force remains in the body and is
eternal.
My personal experience is you have little control over what relatives,
and more particularly the medical profession get up to when you lapse
into unconsciousness. In spite of quite specific promises I endured an
operation I did not agree to have. The answer to this must be very much
stronger and tighter controls over the powers of those who would take
decisions on your behalf. More importantly there has to be real appraisal
of the relationship between the meaning of life and death.
If my medium is correct, and life marches on as the individual quite
regardless of the external body, in the manner of the ideas of
Swedenbourg, then it hardly matters at all what goes on in this life. It
is somewhat like the irritation of missing a meal, or a train. You could
jump off a cliff with impunity because you are, in the ideas of the
medium, still whole on the etheric sub-atomic plane.
Well once again I can only call upon personal experience. I only have
practical knowledge of this world, this is where I starve if I don't
work. The visions of William Blake are all very well, my experience of
comfort and luxury is down here with my feet firmly on the ground. It is
some help in hours of distress to believe in the life of better times to
come. Meanwhile I think on balance there is a good chance both are wrong,
there may be a third way which I have yet to discover.
The answer is to put the problem off as long as possible and look to
extending the present life to some 120 or 130 years. Perhaps by then I
will be so sick of it I'll be glad to walk the plank to eternity.
Brian W. Haines
--
Sincerely, ****************************************
* Publisher of Longevity Report *
John de Rivaz * Fractal Report *
* details on request *
****************************************
**** What is the point of life if it ends in death? ****
Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=4935