X-Message-Number: 5187 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 23:42:13 +0100 (MET) From: Eugene Leitl <> Subject: Moravec, Tipler, and Immortality Having just run into German translation of Tipler's "Physics of Immortality" I'd like to add some remarks to that ancient thread "Hans Moravec on Cryonics". Tipler is a physicist/cosmogonist of some renown who thinks he can prove the existance of God aka the Omega Point by means of physics. While his theory is sure different from metaphysics since it is a brittle (provable or falsifyable) physical theory, some of his assumptions seem to be questionable, if not faulty. (He mentions Moravec to having independantly discovered essentially the same theory, that's why there's "Moravec" in the subject line). In short, he believes in God as the future convergence point of human, transhuman of alien supercivilizations ("The God Who Will Be"). His main point is that future is equally determining the present as is the past. By means of really spectacular physics, he proves that the Omega Point boundary condition imposes many constraints upon the possible presents, thus ruling out many possibilities and making his theory provable. (Apart from him prattling upon various philosphies/ religions and their (non)homology to his Omega Point theory this is a highly readable book, btw.). Now my main points of criticism are these: - he interprets the Silence in the Skies (as confirmed by SETI) as the fact that the emergence of intelligent life is a highly improbable event. Contemporary science is of contrary oppinion, and the silence can be interpreted in terms of Vinge's singularity as well. - he thinks intelligence will switch substrate to Higgs field at some unspecified future time imo, apart from Higgs bosons not being proven to exist yet (?), their faculty to function as intelligence maintaing substrate has not been shown yet. - he supposes anybody alife will be reconstructed utilizing the circling information derived from emitted photons he himself points out that the questions of deteriorating coherency and photon/matter interaction are crucial. - he assumes the Omega Point in all his Glory and Omnipotence chooses to ressurrect anybody who has ever lived though he says Omega Point must be a Good Guy due to cooperation emergent from Darwinian evolution and game theory: -- emerging of cooperation is nonlinear, so unprovable -- one might argue whether a human (or chimp or dog or..) can be considered a person by the Big Omega Boss: we do not consider bacteria/viruses persons, do we? Finally, Moravec's regarding cryonics as pointless: I think a little extra redundancy can never hurt, apart from the fascinating option of being able to travel towards the Omega point in person, in fact to _cause the Omega point to happen_. Though this has been said before: a cryonicist can never lose, it seems. -- Eugene P.S. If it has not become clear: this is a great book, well worth reading. Moreover, it dwells upon the trashumanism point, which seems to receive little attention in cryonet. At least this "Immortalist Society" thread seems to ignore the progress explosion. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=5187