X-Message-Number: 5369 From: (Brian Wowk) Newsgroups: sci.cryonics Subject: Re: Too Good To Be True? Date: 6 Dec 95 21:09:22 GMT Message-ID: <> References: <4a3pk3$> In <4a3pk3$> John K Clark <> writes: > ---- CryoNet Message Auto-Forwarded by <> ---- >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:50:11 -0800 >From: John K Clark <> >Subject: SCI.CRYONICS Too Good To Be True? >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Brian Wowk () wrote: > >We are : optimistic in cryonics that this technology > >[vitrification] will allow us to perform reversible > >cryopreservation of the human brain within the next decade. >In just 10 years, without nanotechnology? Could this really be true? >I'm an optimistic fellow by nature, but that sounds too good to be true. >I would LOVE to be proven wrong however. It would be most interesting if some >knowledgeable people in the field such as Darwin, Ettinger or Donaldson would >comment on this claim. Reversible cryopreservation of an entire large animal is a tough problem. Reversible cryopreservation of individual organs is another matter. Professional cryobiologists and conventional medical research institutions (like the Red Cross) have been pursuing this problem for a number of years now. They certainly would not be investing in this research if they believed nanotechnology was required. (Most cryobiologists don't even know what nanotechnology is!) Although there are never any guarantees, I think most cryobiologists would agree that reversible organ cryopreservation is *near-term* technological prospect. (A South African group claims to have already succeeded with the heart, but they haven't published yet, and I'm sceptical.) The most successful (and believable) work so far has been done with vitrification (ice free cryopreservation) of the kidney. I've appended a recent message from Mike Darwin that summarizes this work below. BTW, 21st Century Medicine, Inc. holds the exclusive licence for application of this technology to cryonics (i.e. the brain). This means that members of the CryoCare Foundation will be the first to benefit from vitrification technology if this work is completed successfully. To quote Philip Morrison: "Nothing is too good to be true." Reversible brain cryopreservation will change EVERYTHING in this business. Absolutely everything. Brian Wowk President, CryoCare Foundation Message #5096 Date: 02 Nov 95 12:55: EST From: Mike Darwin <> > Subject: SCI.CRYONICS:hyperbaria VITRIFICATION: Bob Ettinger responds to Ben Best's claim that Greg Fahy's current vitrification approach does NOT require hyperbaria by saying that he is unaware of this, if it is true. I wish to confirm that Ben is *correct.* Greg has not needed to use hyperbaria for at least two years in order to recover viable kidneys following loading and unloading with a 1 atmosphere vitrifiable concentration of cryoprotectants. This is a BRIEF and very compressed status report: 1) Rabbit kidneys have been loaded with a 1 atmosphere vitrifiable solution, cooled to -30 C or -40 C (I think Greg recently went from -30 C to -40 C, but am not sure), been reimplanted into the same animal, and supported the animal as the SOLE kidney indefinitely. This work has been repeated many times. 2) WHY then have not kidneys been vitrified since all that is required is further cooling from -30 or -40 C to -135 C or thereabouts and, since no ice will form, there will be no cause for added injury except for possible thermal effects on membranes, proteins, or other cell components (known to be minimal)? 3) The answer to #2 above is that it is easier to fall down a well than to climb out of one. While cooling to and vitrification at -135 C (no ice formation) using a nontoxic 1 ATM vitrifiable solution can be done in rabbit kidneys TODAY, what cannot be done is to rewarm them without freezing. During cooling, the system steadily loses energy. It also forms microscopic and biologically insignificant amounts of ice which are scattered through the organ. These nidi or crystals are few, far between and do not propagate during cooling over reasonable time intervals and are inhibited completely by the glass transition of the solution (VS4 in this case). Unfortunately, rewarming at rates achieveable with traditional conductive methods in something as big as whole kidneys results in the system FREEZING. The alternative is to rewarm very rapidly at a rate of 300-400 C/min. This is theoretically possible using appropriate frequencies of RF (*not* conventional microwaves as used in kitchen ovens) even for whole human bodies. It is certainly possible for masses the size of rabbit kidneys because it has been done with a previous solution (VS2). 4) WHY THEN HAVE KIDNEYS NOT BEEN VITRIFIED? The answer here is as simple as it is perverse. The expertise and equipment required to do this are controlled by a researcher employed by the US FDA named Paul Ruggera. For the past 5 YEARS Dr. Ruggera and Dr. Fahy have been seeking to get FDA permission to collaborate (their early collaboration was aborted by bureacuratic red tape after initial experiments showed the feasability of the system). Just recently the CRATA allowing the collaboration was approved. However, by this time Greg had moved on to the Naval Medical Research Facility and left the Red Cross. The first CRATA between the FDA and Red Cross took intervention by a Congressman to facilitate plus the personal approval of FDA Commissioner David Kessler. As I understand it, efforts are underway to get the approved CRATA transferred to NAMRI. 5) WHY CAN'T SOMEONE ELSE FILL THE BILL FOR THE TECHNOLOGY RUGGERA IS NEEDED FOR? a) Patents on the technology. b) This work requires extreme expertise and physical proximity of the investigators. c) Money; a radio station transmitter, complete with FCC license is required to rewarm rabbit kidneys (and humans kidneys) fast enough to avoid freezing upon rewarming. These things don't come cheap. Last I heard the transmitter was sitting in a crate somewhere. It has been in the crate for YEARS. Any Questions? (discussion of recrystalization problems with low-concentration CPA deleted) ------------------------------------------ P.S. from Brian Wowk: What Mike does not mention in the above message is that kidney *slices* have already been successfully recovered from -135'C because they can be rewarmed rapidly by conduction alone. This is very suggestive that an rf heating system suitable for rewarming whole kidneys is the primary obstacle remaining to perfected cryopreservation of this organ. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=5369