X-Message-Number: 5436
From:  (Thomas Donaldson)
Subject: Re: CryoNet #5426 - #5434
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:08:34 -0800 (PST)

Hi again!

I went to the A4M Conference this last weekend and it was quite interesting in
the parts I attended. Several cryonicists there noticed the way virtually 
everyone there thought of and treated cryonics: one more, quite acceptable,
means to extend our life. NOT something so weird it can be dismissed at once.

There was, toward the end, a session on cryonics and related technologies. 
Minsky spoke at it; I'd never heard him speak before and I'd never even laid
eyes on him. His talk had quite a number of funny spots but told me nothing
I didn't already know (and though I didn't come with references to prove the
point, I think he was even quite wrong on some things). I left that session
during his talk; Ralph Merkle was to give the last talk, on cryonics, and 
wrongly or rightly I felt that I would not hear anything I haven't already
heard. (He was, as always, a good moderator). Greg Fahy talked about the 
potential applications of nanotechnology IN DREXLER'S SENSE to medicine.
 
L Stephen Coles discussed the biotechnological version of nanotechnology
(which I have repeatedly pointed out still remains the only version in 
existence RIGHT NOW). The contrast was interesting: all of Greg's applications
could actually be done using a more advanced version of molecular biology.
Greg was cognizant of biotechnology, I'm sure, and did not propose as a 
future benefit of Drexler nanotechnology anything that genetic engineers 
were presently developing, but the development path was still clear. Coles
in his talk spoke not only of current developments but also of things just
over the horizon: implanting several genes, creating systems of modified
lymphocytes (or whatever), etc etc. As a presently existing technology, of
course, biotechnology runs into all the problems of reality: choice of 
means, with each one having its disadvantages, etc etc, each of which must
be tried by experiment. Coles seemed to be on the more optimistic side;
I certainly agree that all these problems are solvable, but for people 
with cancer or genetic illnesses the wait will seem interminable.

Our beloved FDA, if it continues to exist, will add to that wait, too; but 
I am not talking about political obstacles but about the problems of detail
that always arise when we try to DO anything.

But if anything the most flaming radical talks weren't by cryonicists or
those associated with them, but by principals of a new company, Geron.
Geron aims to make use of recent experiments which may actually have shown
the cause of the 50-division limit for our somatic cells. Michael Fossel
chaired this session and spoke of his speculations about the effect of 
a sudden arrival of immortality through genetic engineering. In some ways
his speculations might benefit from discussions with cryonicists, many of
whom have thought more and longer on the same subject. I personally have
doubted that the division limit is the whole story, but now we have a means
to actually change it, so that we can test by experiment its relevance to
normal aging. That's very much a Good Thing.

So it was a good conference, even for cryonics.

I have just finished reading all the Cryonet postings which accumulated 
while I was gone. I myself have said repeatedly that we would do much better
to forget squabbling. Our lives are ALL on the line. I also managed to discuss
the state of his technology with Greg himself (more problems of detail!, though
he is making progress). He also said that at present NO cryonics group has 
obtained exclusive use of any of this technology; it is licensed to a company
whose principals have no bias (his words) against cryonics. (If that had not
been so, we would all be in for lots of wasted money and time. After all,
the ability to vitrify --- though certainly important --- is hardly the only
thing we need to do to succeed with long term suspensions. We need better 
and safer means to keep temps in the desired range, and hopefully ones that
won't cost too much to be practical. And Greg himself said that his work had
not yet reached the temperatures needed for long term storage. If we all have
to duplicate everyone else's work, we're only making the job much harder than
it needs to be).

			Best, and long long life,

				Thomas Donaldson


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