X-Message-Number: 5436 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: Re: CryoNet #5426 - #5434 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:08:34 -0800 (PST) Hi again! I went to the A4M Conference this last weekend and it was quite interesting in the parts I attended. Several cryonicists there noticed the way virtually everyone there thought of and treated cryonics: one more, quite acceptable, means to extend our life. NOT something so weird it can be dismissed at once. There was, toward the end, a session on cryonics and related technologies. Minsky spoke at it; I'd never heard him speak before and I'd never even laid eyes on him. His talk had quite a number of funny spots but told me nothing I didn't already know (and though I didn't come with references to prove the point, I think he was even quite wrong on some things). I left that session during his talk; Ralph Merkle was to give the last talk, on cryonics, and wrongly or rightly I felt that I would not hear anything I haven't already heard. (He was, as always, a good moderator). Greg Fahy talked about the potential applications of nanotechnology IN DREXLER'S SENSE to medicine. L Stephen Coles discussed the biotechnological version of nanotechnology (which I have repeatedly pointed out still remains the only version in existence RIGHT NOW). The contrast was interesting: all of Greg's applications could actually be done using a more advanced version of molecular biology. Greg was cognizant of biotechnology, I'm sure, and did not propose as a future benefit of Drexler nanotechnology anything that genetic engineers were presently developing, but the development path was still clear. Coles in his talk spoke not only of current developments but also of things just over the horizon: implanting several genes, creating systems of modified lymphocytes (or whatever), etc etc. As a presently existing technology, of course, biotechnology runs into all the problems of reality: choice of means, with each one having its disadvantages, etc etc, each of which must be tried by experiment. Coles seemed to be on the more optimistic side; I certainly agree that all these problems are solvable, but for people with cancer or genetic illnesses the wait will seem interminable. Our beloved FDA, if it continues to exist, will add to that wait, too; but I am not talking about political obstacles but about the problems of detail that always arise when we try to DO anything. But if anything the most flaming radical talks weren't by cryonicists or those associated with them, but by principals of a new company, Geron. Geron aims to make use of recent experiments which may actually have shown the cause of the 50-division limit for our somatic cells. Michael Fossel chaired this session and spoke of his speculations about the effect of a sudden arrival of immortality through genetic engineering. In some ways his speculations might benefit from discussions with cryonicists, many of whom have thought more and longer on the same subject. I personally have doubted that the division limit is the whole story, but now we have a means to actually change it, so that we can test by experiment its relevance to normal aging. That's very much a Good Thing. So it was a good conference, even for cryonics. I have just finished reading all the Cryonet postings which accumulated while I was gone. I myself have said repeatedly that we would do much better to forget squabbling. Our lives are ALL on the line. I also managed to discuss the state of his technology with Greg himself (more problems of detail!, though he is making progress). He also said that at present NO cryonics group has obtained exclusive use of any of this technology; it is licensed to a company whose principals have no bias (his words) against cryonics. (If that had not been so, we would all be in for lots of wasted money and time. After all, the ability to vitrify --- though certainly important --- is hardly the only thing we need to do to succeed with long term suspensions. We need better and safer means to keep temps in the desired range, and hopefully ones that won't cost too much to be practical. And Greg himself said that his work had not yet reached the temperatures needed for long term storage. If we all have to duplicate everyone else's work, we're only making the job much harder than it needs to be). Best, and long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=5436