X-Message-Number: 5570
From: 
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:53:24 -0500
Subject: Church of Man

Dwight Jones (#5563) seems to have several misunderstandings. I'll try to
keep this short, because probably few on this list share Mr. Jones' views.

First,  as I said (clumsily, since he misinterpreted it) Mr. Jones thinks
there are value systems "loftier" than "human nature" or self interest. He
confirms this, and speaks of a "pluralistic" value system and of altruism
working toward self interest.

Of course there are many instances of "altruism" or other kinds of short term
sacrifice promoting longer term self interest; this does not change the fact
that self interest--feelings in your head--constitutes the only basis of
value that is physically possible (given certain reasonable assumptions about
the nature of reality).

I said that life decisions should be based on probability calculations (not
always explicit, but frequently difficult, involving internal and external
feedbacks) concerning the effects of present actions on future
feel-good/feel-bad.   He responds that we collectively can take a thousand
years if necessary to study our options, and that our phenotype will not
change in this period; these statements are wrong or irrelevant or both. Many
of our problems, whether individual or collective, will require quick action;
and it is easy to envision changes in the phenotype compatible with survival
as individuals. (Genetic engineering has ALREADY produced geno/pheno changes
in living individual mammals.)

Concerning the need for logic and evidence, Mr. Jones responds that the
Church of Man "takes the view that your clone is you, if only because two
pieces of chemistry with 6 billion identical parts (DNA) cannot be anything
but identical." Leaving aside the question of identical quantum states,  he
apparently believes that a pair of identical twins constitute just one
person. 

Actually, it's a bit puzzling that Mr. Jones seems to approve of cryonics,
but just as a means of preserving DNA. You don't need cryonics to preserve
DNA.

Robert Ettinger


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