X-Message-Number: 6524
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 20:44:51 -0400
From: Ken Stone <>
Subject: Discussion of Asian interest in cryonics
Stephen Bridge has asked that I repost to cryonet a couple of
letters that we exchanged:
---------------------------------------------
>From frodo Fri Jul 12 12:24:35 1996
To:
Subject: Asian interest
Steve,
I don't feel like starting a debate on Cryonet about this,
but I think you are entirely WRONG about the potential
Asian market. In particular, I'd bet that the average
Japanese would be *much* more accepting of the idea of
cryonics than the average American.
Pardon me for dealing in stereotypes, but Asian cultures
are notoriously a lot better than our own when it comes to
making sacrifices today for the sake of the future.
(Although admittedly that's starting to change with the younger
generations.) Furthermore, when you consider the relative
strength of the yen vs. the dollar, it seems reasonable to
suppose that there are a LOT of Japanese who could easily
afford the necessary investment.
Personally, I think you just squandered a huge opportunity, but,
well... that's my opinion. :)
---Ken
------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Bridge <>
To:
Ken:
> I don't feel like starting a debate on Cryonet about this,
> but I think you are entirely WRONG about the potential
> Asian market.
I don't mind a CryoNet debate about it, Ken. We might all learn
something about our prespectives on the world.
> In particular, I'd bet that the average
> Japanese would be *much* more accepting of the idea of
> cryonics than the average American.
I base my decision on two or three things. I have had several
encounters with Japanese and Korean journalists. They have ALL treated
cryonics as a pathalogical response to death. Pro-death philosophy is a
strong part of most Asian religions and cultures.
Also, some other Asians I have spoken with are of the opinion that the
Japanese would be ESPECIALLY resistant to cryonics because of the strong
prevalence of ancestor worship in the culture. You have to be dead to move
up to that venerated state.
Besides, for a small, non-profit group like Alcor, a little bit of
success in Japan could bankrupt us. We don't have simple products to sell
like widgets. We have a process (for which we don't collect the sales
fee for 10-50 years!) and an organization. Our experiences already in
advising Germans and other foreigners on setting up cryonics has been
expensive failures. Yes, if we were seilling complete cryonics systems AND
if we could show that Japan would have a large market in 5 years AND if we
had a huge amount of speculative capital, we could try this. Otherwise, it
is a waste of time and could lead to a huge waste in money.
Many companies have gone belly-up by expanding too rapidly or by
taking on markets they couldn't handle. Getting Japanese members could
bankrupt us -- and I don't think it is very likely anyway. Two good
reasons not to jump on this "opportunity."
Steve
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>From frodo Fri Jul 12 17:08:50 1996
To:
Subject: Re: Asian interest
Steve:
I won't argue with you about the economics; you should know your business
a lot better than I do and whether or not you are capable of turning
a reasonable profit (or whatever it is that non-profit corporations turn...)
in Japan.
But I *will* argue for a very high Japanese level of interest.
Back to the notion that Japan is more accepting of death than we are:
this is PRECISELY why I would expect Japan to be such a fantastic
market for cryonics. Why? Because people there can *deal with the
issues more comfortably*. Here, your single biggest obstacle is
that people are just too freaked out by thinking about anything
related to death. There, most people will reject cryonics also--
but not as many of them will be so violently repelled from it
without even thinking about it, and that's an incredible start.
As to whether or not cryonics is a pathological response to death--
well, I have to qualify my response to this one. Ultimately, it
depends on how likely the technology is to work. Every current
cryonics supporter relies on the logic that 'some chance is better
than none at all'. True enough. But when the (current) chances of
successful revival are very small (my own gut estimate is somewhere
less than 2%), I certainly think it's a fair question to ask:
Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for most people to 'get a life'
now, instead of devoting so much of their life's energy to worrying
about the next one?
Eventually, I expect this situation to change. And I know who will
be leading the way. But for now, I don't think your Japanese / Korean
contacts who think of us as being pathologically afraid of death are
all THAT far off the mark. The point I'm leading up to is this:
if I were in your shoes, I'd much prefer to work in a market where
most people think of cryonicists as being pathologically fearful
Don Quixote-types who spend their time tilting at the windmill of Death.
It's one hell of an improvement over being associated with ghouls, zombies,
and other undead coming back from the crypt.
---Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve Bridge <>
To:
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:39:13
Ken:
> The point I'm leading up to is this: if I were in your shoes, I'd much
> prefer to work in a market where most people think of cryonicists as
> being pathologically fearful Don Quixote-types who spend their time
> tilting at the windmill of Death. It's one hell of an improvement over
> being associated with ghouls, zombies, and other undead coming back from
> the crypt.
Interesting points, Ken. Long-term, you may end up being correct; but
I can't risk Alcor's short-term survival by spending a lot of time on
developing a market overseas. I'm still not sure you are right about the
Japanese, by the way; but the experiment to find out who is right will be a
costly one.
I'd really like you to copy this entire discussion to CryoNet for
comments by others. I give you permission to post my responses.
Steve
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