X-Message-Number: 6722
Subject: Re: Reply to Brian Wowk & Prometheus comments
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 96 19:25:36 GMT
From: (Michelle Olga Visser)
References: <>
I will attempt to answer to Brian Wowks response, and at the same time
supply as much relevant information to cryonicists, scientists and
generaly the public at large in an effort to save the need for private
communications where possible, in as structured and methodical a manner
as possible.
This is not an invitation to public forum, as time unfortunately does not
permit me to answer much mail at present.
On 96/08/07 06:27AM, in message <>, Brian Wowk
<> wrote:
<let me apologize for any misunderstandings about the
<nature of Ms. Visser's technology. The only information available about
<the technology has been newspaper articles and a few brief sci.cryonics
<posts. All these reports indicated that only rat hearts had been
<preserved, and at very high cooling rates ("flash freezing"). This
<information was confirmed by Ms. Visser's colleague, Dr. du Plessis.
<If the technology has since been verified on other organs, and larger
<organs at slow cooling rates, I am delighted, and eagerly await the
<report.
Apology accepted, though not the explanations.
<First, let me thank Ms. Visser for expressing her public support
<of cryonics. This addresses critics, such as Steve Farmer, who do not
<believe there are real scientists who believe that brains can be
<cryopreserved.
I have neither expressed support for, nor against cryonics as my knowledge
of your current clinical procedures is limited.
This does however not exclude the possibility of my becoming a supporter
of cryonics in the future, but this is of no consequence here.
My "belief" is limited to the current physics and cryobiological limits as
"I" know them, and will therefore limit my comments to these.
>From past clinical experience, I can see no reason why "all organs" cannot
be successfully cryopreserved(cryobiology),and therefore "full suspended
animation"(cryonics?)is logically within our reach.
To attain this however, we have to:
1) perfect cryopreservation on each and every individual organ in the body
first(different perfusion solutions are required - though one common CPA
will do- this includes the brain).
How? - 10 Independant teams working in co-operation could do it in two
years flat.
2) Then develop a common perfusate(common physiological solution)to
perfuse the entire body with and introduce the CPA for cryopreservation
How? - one team should take one year to perfect the perfusate, and one
year to perfect "full suspended animation" (after all organs)
The sum of the description above will in all probability never
materialize, at least not within those time constrains at any rate - but
all of the above are now credible, attainable procedures, and many of them
will be accomplished in the very near future (in the name of cryobiology),
with or without your participation.
I guess what I am trying to say to Peter Wakfer here is the following:
Your idea of assisting cryonics research is commendable, but to become
credible and even accepted by cryobiologists and other scientists:
scale down, diversify, become more moderate, and set a succession of many
smaller goals.
Such a large project is enough to scare most conservative people away.
I would imagine many pledges now will water down when it is finally needed.
To attract outside capital, especially for a "for profit company", I
would imagine it would be easier to launch 10 funding companies, each
specializing in different organs, and doing it in the name of cryobiology.
What better PR strategy can you think of?
There is much more profit in organ banks and transplants than in cryonics,
and therefore attractive to all investors, cryonicist and non cryonisists
alike. In order to get, you must give.
Next, do it faster - start one or two smaller funding companies every three
months, and start funding someone.
Entertain and make friends with the press and media above all else - they
are more powerful than all governments and academics put together, -they
get you heard where it counts - the man in the street, and they will
advertise what you are doing for cryobiology and suffering patients
awaiting a transplant thus attracting even more funding.
They also give you the leverage you need when it comes to bureaucrats.
Before you know it, cryonics will be as recognized as corn flakes, and you
will have achieved your goal - Brain cryopreservation and or full suspended
animation. - Enough advise - Peter asked for suggestions and got them.
<I strongly encourage Ms. Visser to publish on the Internet.
<Publishing pre prints on the Internet is common practice in sciences
<like physics, and need not preclude publication in journals if the
<text is re-written so as to avoid copyright infringement. Ms. Visser,
<your patent protection is in place, your research is apparently highly
<advanced, so please tell us exactly what you have done! Until your
<message attacking me this weekend, there was no reason for me
<to believe that your work was applicable to brains because of
<the cooling rate issue.
As I have received many offers of assistance since to publish, for which I
am thankful,let me briefly explain my position to all sci.cryonics readers
It is easy to say : "publish on the net", -- and this will be done as a
last resort, but I would be very selfish to do so.
Many scientists, in various fields give me their time without compensation
to demonstrate my theories and protocols and without who all of this would
not be possible.
Their only compensation for their exhaustive efforts would be recognition
from their respective Universities, as co-authors in a "listed, accepted"
peer review journal, with possible adjustments to their annual research
budgets in their respective departments.
I must therefore endeavor to accommodate them.
Although I refer to the article as "my article", I am indebted to the
following scientists for their invaluable input and support:
Prof. Dirk du Plessis: Head of Thoracic Surgery, University of Pretoria
Prof. Pierre Cilliers: Head of Bio Engineering, University of Pretoria
Prof. Chris Steinman: Head of Physiology, University of Pretoria
Ms. Phillet Grobler: Phd Student, Physiology, University of Pretoria
I do however assure everyone that I will leave no stone unturned to get
my article published and available to all as soon as possible.
<Paul Wakfer's Prometheus Project does not seek to re-invent
<what you have already accomplished. The Project seeks to adapt the
<best organ cryopreservation technologies available to the problem
<of brain cryopreservation. The only "bias" in the Project is a bias
<toward the most promising technologies, as selected by available
<experts. (And, no, there is not only one expert available.)
I believe I have covered my perspective of this above.
<If your technology will work on brains, then that's wonderful.
I have no reason to believe it won't
<But the Prometheus Project will still be necessary to do the neuroscience
<experiments necessary to VERIFY that your technology works on brains.
Agreed, and I am certainly not offering my services here!
<The Project is anticipated to start in 1998, so that is more than
<enough time for you to make the case that your technology should
<be investigated.
That is too far in the future.
<If your technology does prove to be a breakthrough for brain
<preservation, and you choose not to make it available to CryoCare because
<of your dislike of me, I'll resign as leader of CryoCare!
I don't think that will be necessary.
<My most sincere interest *is* to advance cryonics technology as rapidly
<as possible.
I am glad to hear that, could you extend that to include "cryobiology"?
<When you say Steve Farmer is "a man after your own heart",I hope
<you are only referring to your shared dislike of Brian Wowk. Steve
<Farmer is a bitter opponent of cryonics.
I believe that as your focus and perspectives change, so will Mr. Farmers
attitude, and some solidarity among you cryonisists wouldn't hurt either.
Sincerely
Olga
----
Michelle Olga Visser
CEO Cryopreservation Technologies
Phone : +27 12 3541677 (W) +27 12 3310701 (H)
E-mail:
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