X-Message-Number: 6916 Date: 16 Sep 96 04:36:47 EDT From: Paul Wakfer <> Subject: Prometheus: Alcor/CI Fund Appeal Although somewhat stunned by their appeal for part of the large amount of research interest and potential funding which the Prometheus Project has unearthed, for the first time in the history of cryonics, I have waited patiently for the end of the Alcor/CI rhetoric about a "major breakthrough" for which there is so far absolutely no evidence of its applicability to the central problem of cryonics: namely the amount of freezing damage to the human brain which is currently being done by even the best cryopreservation procedures. However, now that Bob Ettinger is not only attempting to get immediate funding for research which is much more nebulous that the Prometheus Project and to which every one of his previous copious criticisms of Prometheus applies equally well, but is also making inaccurate statements about the Prometheus Project policies, I can no longer remain silent to his hypocrisy. 1) Bob Ettinger's and Dave Pizer's continuing statements that the Prometheus Project will not be ready to go until 1998 are without foundation. I have already posted a message stating that the Project is taking steps to widen its appeal and place itself more in the science mainstream. These steps could well lead to its being ready to start in the first half of 1997. They may also produce a larger influx of money from outside the cryonics community than originally anticipated. Any pledger who will not be ready to invest at the start of the project will be allowed to start begin share purchases in 1998, yet have the same privileges as if he or she had started at the founding of the corporation. 2) The Prometheus Project research will be done by mainstream, credentialed and published scientists. (It was never planned to be done at 21st Century Medicine or by Mike Darwin, even though I regard Mike as the premier cryonics researcher.) 3) I do not recommend that anyone donate to Alcor's research until: a) They have some credentialed researchers capable of doing meaningful, verifiable, and publishable work. b) They have a research plan which details the steps to be taken, the results looked for, the purpose of each step, the controls related to each step, the detailed reproducible method to be used, and the anticipated cost of each experimental step. c) Some preliminary inexpensive work such as Brian Wowk has proposed, is taken to show that there is some possibility of the "Visser method" being applicable to cryonics. Until such evidence is presented, it is unreasonable to assume that it is useful beyond its use in rat hearts which are, after all, a very small and easy organ to cryopreserve, little different from the frog hearts, and rat heart pieces which were done long ago. I find it inappropriate that the efforts of an unpublished novice which have not yet been verified to be applicable to cryonics cooling rates and organ types, have so quickly been seized upon as a "major breakthrough", and that 20 years of progress by mainstream cryobiologists has been dismissed so quickly. 4) With respect to CI's research, we already have evidence that they are not qualified to scientifically interpret the work that their Ukrainian cryobiologists are doing. The original brain tissue micrographs which they were touting as being so great, were shown on close examination by several people in this country who have the training to interpret such pictures, to be cryopreserved with at least as much damage than the best that is achievable in cryonics today. The EEG result which they have been touting bears little relevance to full recovery of mental faculties, since many brain dead people have normal looking EEGs. The Prometheus Project will use EEGs as only the most gross indication at the start of brain cryoprotectant development that we are on the right track. 5) The idea that the Visser cryoprotectant might "possibly even produce superior cryonic suspension for our very next patient" is pure hype without any substance whatever. It would irresponsible to apply a new cryoprotectant and procedure to a human cryopreservation patient without complete and reproducible testing of its toxicity and protective abilities. 7) In Cryomsg #6903 Bob Ettinger wrote: >As to sharing, first I remind PP people that PP explicitly promises to >reward those who buy shares and to penalize those who don't (if PP yields >valuable, patentable technology). The precise size of the rewards and >penalties are left to the future PP company to determine. This is a misrepresentation of the Prometheus Project policies. Yes, we are going to reward shareholders. That's why people buy shares in for-profit corporations: to be rewarded. We would also similarly reward any cryonics *organization* who buys shares in the Project. But it is wrong to say that the corporation is going to *penalize* anyone, unless Bob now is implying that any company who sells their product on the free market is *penalizing* all those who are not share holders! The Prometheus Project has stated from the beginning that it will treat all cryonicists and organizations equally. >Is there any cryonicist who would not want the relevance of the Visser >technique verified, and as soon as possible? Your donation could speed up >the work. Given the lack of experimental evidence so far, I believe that even this statement is incorrect. Sensible people do not donate their hard earned money for undetailed research. If Alcor and CI would hire some credentialed cryobiology lab to do the research, then I would give them at least $1000 in order to determine the value of the "Visser method" and I believe that I could convince several other people to do the same. >Now, the sharing question again. CI and Alcor have exclusive license to the >Visser method for cryonics purposes, including the right to sub-license. On >what basis the CI and Alcor directors will offer sub-licenses remains to be >determined, just as with the PP company. I believe that the license is unenforceable on the other cryonics organizations because the cryopreservation of humans is deemed by all cryonics organizations to be *research*. The *only* advantage which the Alcor/CI/Visser deal gives to Alcor and CI is the knowledge of her perfusate, perfusion and freezing methods two months in advance of the publication of her paper in November (which is, I believe, its planned date of appearance). > I remind readers that CI, for example, has freely published its results >on both our storage research And they have provided no details. The facts are that CI's liquid nitrogen patient cost for liquid nitrogen is about $1000 per whole-body, Alcor's is about $500, and CryoSpan's is about $350. CI's much touted cryostats are, in fact, much more prone to deterioration, breakage, and poor performance than are the industry standard stainless steel dewars which Alcor, CryoSpan and Trans Time use. >and our cryobiology work; Again with little scientific detail, uncontrolled methods, and unskilled interpretations. >and we have given help at no cost to competitor Paul Wakfer when Cryospan >wanted to build a liquid nitrogen transport unit and needed our technology. And I thank you for that and would have gladly paid. Please send me a bill for consulting services, so that I may discharge this debt and not be beholden to you for anything. You did make my job a little bit easier. >(Visualize, if you can, the PP company giving something to a competitor!) This is again without foundation. The Prometheus Project has announced, at least once, that all research findings would be immediately available to all cryonics organizations as soon as they were verified at no charge while the Project is still in progress to its final goal. We did not state it before, but we fully intended that these would be released under a non-disclosure agreement even before patents were in place, so that there would be no possible delay in benefiting any cryonics patient. Anyone who knows how careful I was, as President of Cryovita Laboratories, to ensure that all equipment necessary for optimal suspension was left available to Alcor (and then sold at very reasonable prices) during the Cryovita/Alcor/CryoCare breakup, will know that I would do all that I possibly could to make life saving technology available to *any* cryonics patient who has in good faith prepared his or her funding. >Remember also that if PP materializes, and if it produces patentable >improvements on the Visser method, then the holders of the basic patents and >of the improvement patents will have to come to some agreement. Use patents are not very enforceable and are easily circumvented. And you are right, improvement patents on original patents work both ways, the holder of the original patents, which may have little practical value without the improvement, must seek permission from the holder of the improvement, if they wish to use it to make money. But again this is all a moot point because all human cryopreservation is research is it not? >Again on the question of details of research plans: Here also (see my post >yesterday) it is not useful, and should not be necessary, to lay everything >out in advance for the approval of all potential donors. That way lies trial >by the committee of the whole, inevitably leading to the death of a thousand >cuts. This work is being done by Dr. Pichugin and our other people, and by >Hugh Hixon and Alcor's other people, in consultation with Mrs. Visser and >her colleagues and collaborators, including experienced cryobiologists in >several countries. Many of the most senior people in cryonics are involved, >including Fred and Linda Chamberlain, founders of Alcor. If that isn't good >enough for you, that is your decision. This is nothing more that a "trust me, this used car runs great, why we've been in business for years" statement. Trust should never be asked for in lieu of evidence. >But if all the talk of "unified front" is still just hot air--if it still >means unification by ingestion--then I will work with those available to >secure the most and best we can for ourselves. The Prometheus Project is not a threat to any cryonics organization. Far from that, is has the most potential of anything for a long time to unify all cryonicists (though not the political, power conscious organizations). >And we will probably do all right, since CI, IS, and Alcor have a large >majority of those active in cryonics and of patients in storage. We'll see. >despite my many doubts about PP, Which, based on your quick acceptance of the "Visser method", have been shown to be hypocritical. >Chorus: In or out of PP, if you are truly interested in hastening progress >in cryonics and in saving your own life, please make your maximum donation >NOW--half to the Immortalist Society and half to Alcor. Memo your checks >to each "Research Fund" (tax deductible). I strongly recommend to all cryonicists, Prometheus pledgers and non-pledgers alike, that you reject this appeal for money without any kind of plan for its expenditure. -- Paul -- !!!!! REVERSIBLE BRAIN CRYOPRESERVATION *CAN* BE ACHIEVED IN 10 YEARS !!!!! Paul Wakfer email: Voice/Fax: Pager: US: 1220 E Washington St #24, Colton, CA 92324 909-481-9620 800-805-2870 Canada: 238 Davenport Rd #240, Toronto, ON M5R 1J6 416-968-6291 416-446-9461 (Currently in California) Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=6916