X-Message-Number: 7152
From: 
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:54:09 -0500
Subject: SCI. CRYONICS misc.

Comments on recent posts to SCI. CRYONICS/CRYONET:

1. There has been some discussion of capital punishment and what people
"deserve."

On the highest or most abstract level, no one "deserves" anything, either
good or ill, in the sense that (s)he has "earned" it. We are totally the
products of heredity and environment, over neither of which we (initially)
had the slightest control. We are all equally victims or beneficiaries of
circumstance. ("We're depraved because we're deprived," in the terms of West
Side Story.)

The practical question of "desserts" is one of utility or social policy.
We--individually or collectively--"should" do whatever advances our
interests. In a restricted context, it is certainly useful to think of "good"
and "bad" people and actions and attitudes, and to imagine that somehow "we"
deserve credit for the achievements of our forebears or contemporaries, while
at the same time rejecting blame for their crimes or errors. It is
intellectually hilarious, yet practically useful, for example, that so many
people take pride in the accomplishments of "their" professional sports
teams--the accomplishments of some nomadic mercenaries, often of questionable
character.

Capital punishment? (a) Those who think the taxpayers should maintain a
convicted murderer in comfort for life, to avoid the occasional mistaken
verdict, forget that we buy and sell lives all the time. As one obvious
example, we could save many construction workers if the safety requirements
were made much stricter (and much more expensive). (b) Those who decry
revenge forget its value--viz., to the morale of the public; society benefits
psychologically when wrong-doers get their just desserts.

Cryonics for bad people? Sure, on the same terms as for anyone else. In the
short run we must deal with bad people judgmentally, for practical reasons;
but in the long term perspective everyone who is bad (including stupid) is
sick or malformed, and curable. And if long term convicts were freely to
choose cryonics, then taxpayers could save big money by paying for it.

2. Cryonics Institute prices and use of morticians:

Yes, in Michigan (and probably other states) the law provides that no one
except a licensed funeral director may cut or inject a dead person--not even
a trainee under direct supervision (with obvious effective exceptions for
mortuary schools, medical shools, pathologists, and surgeons doing
transplants). This is one of the reasons CI uses morticians for the surgical
aspects of suspension procedures. 

But CI has also begun a policy of developing a world network of cooperating
funeral directors and equipping and training them to do washout and
perfusion. We believe that, building on their embalming school training, well
chosen funeral directors can be trained to do specific procedures as
effectively, in most cases, as M.D. surgeons, and at MUCH lower cost. 

It is important, if possible, to do not only"stabilization" but also washout
and perfusion locally. Our results suggest that promptness is more important
than the details of the procedure. Traveling teams starting from a great
distance can seldom do a prompt job in cases where death was unexpected--and
in standby cases the cost can be very high for traveling teams who may have
to wait for days or weeks, or else make a decision to go home and hope the
patient lives.

Over the next year or two I suspect that the procedures of all organizations
will  tend to converge, as a result of the invigorated research now going
on--possibly using Visser-related technology. At CI we think the indications,
so far, are that we can move to the new methods without raising prices.

3. One writer raised questions about the vulnerability of cryonics
organizations to malfeasance/nonfeasance of its personnel; and about cryonics
contracts; and also about experimenting with patients in attempting revival.
This writer is obviously a newcomer, but such need to be set straight.

(a) In the case of the nonprofit organizations, and Cryonics Institute in
particular, both motive and opportunity are lacking for an officer to profit
at the expense of patients--or to profit at all financially. There are no
stockholders, and no officer or director is paid. The welfare of our present
and future patients (inlcuding ourselves and members of our families) is our
ONLY interest.

(b) No contract can "guarantee" that patients won't be "thawed out and
cremated, no matter what happens to the company." Asking for such a guarantee
is silly, and anyone who would offer such a guarantee would be either an
idiot or a crook; you can't honestly guarantee the impossible. You can only
guarantee to do your best, and the prospective member must decide, on the
basis of past performance and current condition,  what that guarantee is
worth. In case things go badly, OF COURSE we will make every effort to
provide some kind of backup or alternative arrangement; if you don't believe
that, stay away.

(c) Patients will not be guinea pigs. No attempt will be made to revive a
patient until success is assured. Success can be assured in a variety of
ways, including experiments with animals (although I would object to seeing
animals suffer); and especially through computer simulations based on
enormous advances both in biology and computer science. Further, the
patient's (inlcuding experimental animals') physical and mental condition
will be monitored every step of the way, and in case of doubt the procedure
will be aborted and the patient returned to stasis.

Robert Ettinger
Cryonics Institute
Immortalist Society


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