X-Message-Number: 7278
Subject: Re: Steve Harris & Soviets
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 96 02:20:39 GMT
From:  (Michelle Olga Visser)
References: <>

In <> 
writes: 

>I have a general question.  As reported in the newspaper, there was a
>demonstration where a rat heart was frozen and thawed, and then
started
>beating.

>On reflection, beating requires coordination by nerve cells --
otherwise a
>heart just quivers or "fibrillate", doesn't it?  So if it beat, this
would
>mean that not just muscle tissue, but also nerve tissue survived,
wouldn't
>it?
>
>My question is, did it really beat, or was that just poor reporting?
>And, if it did beat, do you (Dr. Visser) agree that nerve tissue
survived?
>If so, do you think brain tissue, and brains, might do as well?
>
>Alan Mole  



   I am reminded of the story of the old duffer who likes to order
raisin bread at the bakery, because it's on the top shelf, and when the
counter girl stretches up to get it, he can see her legs.  One day as
he is doing this, another old guy who is watching the girl remarks that
he too has to order another loaf.  "Is yours raisin, too?"  "No, but
it's quivering a bit."

   So: do the Visser hearts beat, or do they just quiver a bit?  And if
they beat, do they beat forcefully enough to mount a blood pressure, or
would they just quiver if put under load?

   I suspect that they beat in coordinated fashion when unloaded. That
was what was reported in the news, and that is what makes sense.  Heart
cells individually isolated in a dish each beat, and when they connect
up, they beat in unison, as electrical discharge from one discharges
the next one touching it.  This happens in a ventricle, too-- no
conduction system (which is made out of specialized heart cells anyway,
not nerves) is required.  The only thing a conduction system does is
give you a squeeze from the tip of the heart up toward the atria, which
is more efficient.  But a squeeze starting from anywhere in the heart
will work well enough to keep you alive.  

   Will the Visser hearts pump well enough to keep blood pressure up? 
That we don't know.  Hearts can take a lot of damage and still beat--
but they can't take destruction of more than about 50% of fibers (and
less if it's done suddenly) and still pump well enough to sustain life.
 

                                         Steve Harris, M.D.


P.S.  Nerve cells have already been suspended by freezing in liquid
nitrogen-- that's not the problem.  It's doing this to a large
connected mass of them that is the problem.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you and Hurrah for our in house cryobiologist/Poet, dr Steve Harris 
, M.D.

who has once again shared with us his invaluable experience and opinions,
not to mention his touching "raising/quivering" problem.

Dr. Steve Harris reminds me of the insurance salesman who believes if
he talks fast enough and sounds intelligent, he might be believed.

May I remind all of you how just a couple of months ago, Dr. Steve Harris
wrote on hearing about my research results that he:-

"hated these Soviet style researchers with unrepealable results".
Now that the results have been repeated for his benefit, they suddenly 
are "old hat" so to speak.

I fear Steve that you have become that which you hate!@

Dr. Steve Harris, please share with us your superior knowledge, and 
instead of flippantly making comments like " P.S.  Nerve cells have 
already been suspended by freezing in liquid nitrogen"

pray, please direct us to the relevant article/s to which you are 
referring,
so we poor mortals too may learn some of your infinite wisdom.

Also, why not venture and offer to answer the rest of Alan's questions,- 
about the brain tissue? Or do you not subscribe to those tabloids?

How could we foolish mortals have overlooked the "Harris principal",
that any frozen/thawed,or long deceased heart only needs a simple 
"squeeze" and "BOBS YOUR AUNT", "DADD'S HOME".

Quite frankly, your general "Soviet style researchers" would advise
a kindly home of safe-keeping, without access to a modem or type-writer,
removal of "M.D" credentials, and some sort of public warning for similar
symptoms as those displayed by yourself.
I personally suggest a permanent holiday, before you do yourself a 
permanent injury.  

Best wishes, and happy holiday.

Olga
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