X-Message-Number: 738
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:43:49 EDT
From: "Steven B. Harris" <>
Subject: More Q & A on ACS and Alcor Policy.
Edgar Swank Says:
Actually what I remember saying was that it was my impression,
subject to correction, that Alcor had not always offered *whole-
-body* suspensions. It's also my impression that even though
Alcor offers whole-body suspensions now that they are discouraged
in favor of neuro. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Steve Harris Answers:
Okay, here's the correction. Alcor has always offered whole-
body suspension as an option since its founding by the Chamber-
lains in 1972, though of course (as things turned out by luck) it
did not have the opportunity to actually do one until mid 1988.
It did have the capability from the beginning, since it con-
tracted for suspensions with Trans-Time for most of its early
history, and as you know TT has been doing whole bodies since
1973. There WAS a small midwest organization founded in the 70's
by Federowicz and Bridge called IABS which offered only neuro-
suspensions, but that organization never actually did any
suspensions, and when IABS merged with the more technically
capable Alcor in 1982 the "neuro only" IABS policy was no longer
necessary. Alcor itself does not officially favor either option
(and never has favored either one), and spirited debates on the
topic between Alcor members have been published in Cryonics
Magazine in the past, without editorial comment. One Alcor
Board of Directors member has already been suspended whole body
(Jerry Leaf), and I am aware of at least one other board member
who has made that type of arrangement. Other Alcor board members
have chosen neuro.
Edgar:
I've heard directly from Trans-Time that the neuro option is
"offered but not promoted". I think this means that if you were
dealing with TT directly you would have to ask for a neuro
suspension, TT would not volunteer its availability.
Steve:
Hmmm. Does that mean you let your prospective customers who
can't afford the whole body suspension fee just toodle off and
die before you'll let them know of an alternative? Or will they
be told only of the "brain-only" alternative?
Edgar:
As I understand it, currently TT's facilities are considered
inadequate for the safety of TT personnel to handle some proce-
dures with HIV+ patients. This is a temporary condition which
should be remedied shortly after TT moves into the new building
in Sunnyvale.
Steve:
Very curious! Perhaps you can explain? What is there about
the facility that makes any difference? Mostly the problem with
HIV is in protecting personnel, and this is a matter of clothing
and face shielding, not facilities or space. What kind of room
you work in is almost immaterial, and I'm at a loss as to why you
need a gigantic industrial building for it. We're talking about
*operating* on HIV patients, not blowing them up with dynamite.
Edgar:
Currently, it's been explained to me, TT accepts HIV+ whole--
body patients. They get a washout, perfusion, etc. via a
cortid/jugular cannulation with no opening of the chest wall.
Steve:
Are they aware that they are going to get only this?
Edgar:
Naturally this results in a good perfusion of the head/brain,
Steve:
Ahem, I'm sorry, but there's no "naturally" about it. For
your information, the brain is perfused by not only two carotids,
but also two vertebral arteries (which join at the brain stem).
If the person happens to have a fully intact and widely patent
Circle of Willis (this occurs in about 25% of people) you run the
risk that blood forced up the carotids will mostly escape down
the vertebrals into the body without perfusing the brain (after
all, why should blood go through a 5 or 10 micron wide capillary
when it can go retrograde down a major artery instead?). Since
TransTime doesn't do skull bur-holes to monitor brain perfusion,
how are you going to know how you are doing? And for those
people without intact or fully patent Circle of Willis connec-
tions, the hind-brain is not going to perfuse at all through the
carotids (Alcor has seen this in dogs perfused though the
carotids). Are your HIV positive members aware of these things?
And what are you going to do about carotid atherosclerosis?
Edgar:
...but a less satisfactory perfusion of the lower body.
Steve:
An understatement.
Edgar:
In the case of brain-only, and presumably head-only, a
professional mortician and a pathologist under ACS/TT supervision
perform perfusion and brain extraction (head detachment?) in a
mortuary.
Steve:
I see. Do your HIV neuro patients know they're going to be
"perfused" by a mortician? With, I presume, not a heart-lung
machine, but rather an embalming pump? Maybe at the standard 25
pounds per square inch pressure? (That ought to blow their
minds). And for this ACS charges more than Alcor does?
Edgar:
We presume these professionals know how to protect themselves
from HIV & there is no danger to TT or ACS personnel.
Steve:
No doubt. But actually, Ed, I don't exactly think it is TT or
ACS personnel who should be most worried here.
Edgar:
Once again, both of these procedures are temporary until an
improved operating theater is available in the new building.
Steve:
And once again, I've got to know what kind of thing you're
planning for this "improved operating theater" which would make a
difference between feeling safe dissecting a neck and feeling
safe dissecting a chest. Waldoes? Isolation suits like in the
Andromeda Strain? What? It isn't your *surgeon* who is the
problem, because your surgeon has already done a full perfusion
for Alcor on an HIV positive patient. So what is it?
Edgar:
I'm afraid I can't provide any more info on the nursing home
patient who refused standby (or whose relative refused standby).
Steve:
Why not? Did you not ask? Did you ask and they wouldn't tell
you?
Edgar:
I also can't provide any info on the last ACS patient at
least at this time. Presumably a report is forthcoming. In-
cidentally, I've forwarded the Alcor report of their last suspen-
sion (A-1260) to ACS. I think it's a good model of the level of
detail such a report should have.
Steve:
I think so too, but since we can't get you to amplify any on
your previous reports, I don't see any point in your aspiring to
do better in the future.
Edgar:
I couldn't comment [on the factors behind the ACS suspension
delay time] since I haven't been involved in the operation of ACS
or TT for several years.
Steve:
Then I'm curious-- whence comes your enthusiasm and boosterism
for an organization you've apparently lost contact with to such
an extent? How do YOU know WHAT they're doing these days?
Edgar:
But I will forward your question for possible comment by the
ACS board. TT monitors Cryonet so it can speak for itself if it
chooses.
Steve:
Okay, we're waiting. So far the silence is deafening.
Edgar:
Without Avi's permission, I can't either confirm or deny his
suspension membership status (was that a trick question?). I
will forward your question to the ACS office where Avi can, if he
wishes, offer his own comments.
Steve:
If the smartest man in the world has a modem, we'd all like to
have his thoughts.
I have to say, though, that in the mean time this "can neither
confirm or deny" stuff about your president's (lack of) cryonic
suspension arrangements makes your organization look deceptive
and silly, sort of like the CIA talking about South America.
Doesn't exactly inspire trust. I agree with Steve Bridge, ac-
tually. I also think you'd probably do better to just stay quiet
about this matter; anything more you say will only be cause for
more laughs.
Steve Harris
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