X-Message-Number: 7646 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: Re: CryoNet #7619 - #7626 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:11:15 -0800 (PST) Hi! Charles made a good report about the Visser experiments. I was unable to witness the last rat because my transportation (which, although he was a cryonicist, lost interest in these experiments after the first one and had been hanging around waiting) finally dragged me away. This issue of the length of time during which the hearts are at the proper temperature (liquid nitrogen temperature) seems to be a key one. Immersion for only a minute is unlikely to do it, even for something so small as a rat heart. When and if she repeats this experiment, either for publication or before an audience, she should take care to keep a thermocouple near the heart. It's very well known to those who work with LN that you can even immerse your hand in it without danger, so long as you do so very briefly. However, no matter how many times the experiment fails, if it succeeds in a case in which the heart clearly reached and remained at LN temperatures for a significant time, then all criticisms will have been answered. I was definitely surprised by Olga Visser, who behaved quite differently than the net postings under her name had suggested. I think that made everyone (including those who had skepticism and questions) sympathetic to her. She may well be mistaken about her solution, but after meeting her I strongly doubt that she is simply a fraud. If she can find someone else to speak for her on the net, or get her husband to tone down his comments, I think that this sympathy will spread. And I will add that even if this cryoprotectant does NOT work, cryonicists do need cryobiology people to work with. I would hope that in that case we can somehow provide help for further work, which will turn out better. The hostility of many cryobiologists to cryonics does not run to the old USSR, nor does it run to South Africa, and we'll need much more work before we can even freeze and revive brains. Long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=7646