X-Message-Number: 8914
From: Thomas Donaldson <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #8903 - #8907
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:39:39 -0800 (PST)

Well, Hi John Clark!

and everyone else, too.

Some points apropos your reading of me. And I hope this does not turn into a

long streak of messages in which you produce points apropos to my points apropos
to your reading of me, and I produce points apropos to your points apropos to
my points apropos ... etc. The algorithm for extending this line should be
clear.


IN ANY CASE: first of all, I would say that regardless of our likely technology,
means to make sufficiently good copies of you or me are likely to take a
relatively long time compared to many other strategies for saving our lives.
Far better means of repairing damaged people should come much sooner. In that
sense, even though copies have some philosophical relevance, the most practical
question is that of how good must a REPAIR be to be considered the same as
you (or me). You may be rebuilt from the brain obtained after your suspension
rather than an entire new brain created and you somehow transferred into it.

I did not think up the continuity distinction, although I think it does have
some merit in describing other's behavior. We've just gone through some 
discussion of why some people will not accept cryonics, for instance. One
reason, I suspect, is that they don't believe that the line between them
prior to death and the person revived after their suspension is continuous
enough for them to believe THEY will be revived. Someone else, sure, but
not themselves. It's not hard to see that there are degrees of continuity,
after all. The molecules in our cells go through turnover (all at different
rates), our brain cells may continue but remake themselves over time, etc
etc. If you insist on looking only at a quantum level, then you may not
see as much continuity as if you look at a higher level: that is what
degrees of continuity MEANS.

Since I know that you have NOT made anything which pretends to be a copy
of me, I don't feel very threatened. But I did mean what I said. I have,
for instance, a large library (getting a bit too large, actually). Some
books I keep because I liked them a lot, others I keep because I use them
constantly, some I keep for memory's sake, and so on. So your copy comes
to me and asks me to transfer to him my entire library? No way. Ditto
my computers, my house, and all those other things. I have a me-ness
which extends beyond just my body. And have you made a copy of my wife,
too (she's also a cryonicist)? As for the copy, unless you provide that
copy with some funds, I'd say (knowing myself) that I'd swiftly become
a very different person if simply dumped out on the street wearing rags.
Or naked.

Not only that, but who is to be recognized by others as ME? Does my copy
also become a member of Alcor by virtue solely of being my copy? If he
claims he has a PhD does he have one or not? If he is a copy, then he
will also suffer from the epilepsy and other problems I got after my
brain tumor. Will the same disability insurance company that pays me
pay him also (NO WAY!!!!). If anything, by making that copy you have made
me his enemy and him mine. And that will change us both, too.

I'll even say that compared to most people, I depend less on the society
around me. But like anyone, if enough people tell you (and act on it) that
you are a worthless bum, then you will find it very hard not to become a
worthless bum. That's the way we work. Sure, I can insulate myself from
the opinions of others, but not totally. 

As for revival after cryonic suspension (however it is done) that raises
totally different questions from the simultaneous existence of a copy.
After all, I would be alive in a case in which I would otherwise be dead.
And even if I've lost all my property, and all my friends, there will be
a self which remains perhaps my sole possession. Moreover I can point to
my own past history. It's one thing to be a refugee across time, and 
quite another to have a copy claiming to own and know everything about
you and everything belonging to you.

So those are my comments apropos. Over to you.

			Best and long long life to all,

				Thomas Donaldson

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