X-Message-Number: 8914 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: Re: CryoNet #8903 - #8907 Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:39:39 -0800 (PST) Well, Hi John Clark! and everyone else, too. Some points apropos your reading of me. And I hope this does not turn into a long streak of messages in which you produce points apropos to my points apropos to your reading of me, and I produce points apropos to your points apropos to my points apropos ... etc. The algorithm for extending this line should be clear. IN ANY CASE: first of all, I would say that regardless of our likely technology, means to make sufficiently good copies of you or me are likely to take a relatively long time compared to many other strategies for saving our lives. Far better means of repairing damaged people should come much sooner. In that sense, even though copies have some philosophical relevance, the most practical question is that of how good must a REPAIR be to be considered the same as you (or me). You may be rebuilt from the brain obtained after your suspension rather than an entire new brain created and you somehow transferred into it. I did not think up the continuity distinction, although I think it does have some merit in describing other's behavior. We've just gone through some discussion of why some people will not accept cryonics, for instance. One reason, I suspect, is that they don't believe that the line between them prior to death and the person revived after their suspension is continuous enough for them to believe THEY will be revived. Someone else, sure, but not themselves. It's not hard to see that there are degrees of continuity, after all. The molecules in our cells go through turnover (all at different rates), our brain cells may continue but remake themselves over time, etc etc. If you insist on looking only at a quantum level, then you may not see as much continuity as if you look at a higher level: that is what degrees of continuity MEANS. Since I know that you have NOT made anything which pretends to be a copy of me, I don't feel very threatened. But I did mean what I said. I have, for instance, a large library (getting a bit too large, actually). Some books I keep because I liked them a lot, others I keep because I use them constantly, some I keep for memory's sake, and so on. So your copy comes to me and asks me to transfer to him my entire library? No way. Ditto my computers, my house, and all those other things. I have a me-ness which extends beyond just my body. And have you made a copy of my wife, too (she's also a cryonicist)? As for the copy, unless you provide that copy with some funds, I'd say (knowing myself) that I'd swiftly become a very different person if simply dumped out on the street wearing rags. Or naked. Not only that, but who is to be recognized by others as ME? Does my copy also become a member of Alcor by virtue solely of being my copy? If he claims he has a PhD does he have one or not? If he is a copy, then he will also suffer from the epilepsy and other problems I got after my brain tumor. Will the same disability insurance company that pays me pay him also (NO WAY!!!!). If anything, by making that copy you have made me his enemy and him mine. And that will change us both, too. I'll even say that compared to most people, I depend less on the society around me. But like anyone, if enough people tell you (and act on it) that you are a worthless bum, then you will find it very hard not to become a worthless bum. That's the way we work. Sure, I can insulate myself from the opinions of others, but not totally. As for revival after cryonic suspension (however it is done) that raises totally different questions from the simultaneous existence of a copy. After all, I would be alive in a case in which I would otherwise be dead. And even if I've lost all my property, and all my friends, there will be a self which remains perhaps my sole possession. Moreover I can point to my own past history. It's one thing to be a refugee across time, and quite another to have a copy claiming to own and know everything about you and everything belonging to you. So those are my comments apropos. Over to you. Best and long long life to all, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=8914