X-Message-Number: 9055 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:46:51 -0500 (EST) From: Ben Best <> Subject: Kenneth B. Storey's lecture at the University of Toronto Kenneth B. Storey, a Canadian cryobiologist from the Institute of Biochemistry at Carleton University in Ottawa spoke at the University of Toronto on Sunday, January 25th. His topic was the freezing of Canadian frogs, but he also spoke about why cryonics doesn't work. The blood of the wood frog Rana sylvatica would normally freeze at -15^C were it not for the fact that these frogs manufacture nucleating proteins which catalyze the formation of ice at -5^C -- thereby giving the frogs "control" over the freezing process. Freezing travels through the blood stream and ends with the core organs -- the heart & liver (which are also the first to thaw & reanimate upon rewarming). Wood frogs have proportionately "massive" livers that rapidly inject huge amounts of glucose into the bloodstream at the first sign of freezing. Their cell membranes contain a special glucose transporter which brings glucose into the cells at a very rapid rate. The frogs also have an unusual form of insulin that regulates best at 5^C. The glucose in the cells prevents osomotic dehydration and contributes to vitrification. Dr. Storey stated that the brains of the wood frogs become completely electrically quiet upon freezing -- with a flat EEG -- and fully recover activity upon rewarming. With some amusement he said he had frozen frogs while mating and that upon rewarming the frogs continued mating. But he discounted the idea that this has any relevance to consciousness because it has not been possible to do learning experiments with these frogs -- it has not seemed possible to *teach* them anything. The presentation ended with Dr. Storey explaining why cryonics -- as practiced today -- cannot work. In essence he said that cells are destroyed by intracellular & extracellular ice, the large human body is subject to freezing stress, fragile bits are lost, dehydration of cells occurs due to osmosis and the cryoprotectants used are too low in permeability to enter cells in appreciable quantity. He said that those interested in human cryopreservation would be best advised to give their money to his research lab rather than waste the money on cryonics. I could have used the occasion as an opportunity to do some flag-waving for cryonics, but instead I concentrated my effort on learning as much as I could. I asked a question during the question period, and joined the crowd around him following the official question period for more questions. He said that no animal or insect is 100% frozen -- wood frogs are frozen 70% and no more. I asked him how the unfrozen 30% is distributed, and he told me that it adjoins the inner & outer sides of all cell membranes to protect them. When I asked him how sperm, blood cells and hypocellular tissues like heart valves & skin are frozen to liquid nitrogen temperature, he said that DMSO and (to a lesser extent) glycerol replaces the water surrounding the cell membranes to provide the protective layering. I asked him about his statement in his SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN article that wooly-bear caterpillars and Siberian salamanders are completely frozen. He said that both claims have been disproven. He even mentioned the problems Dr. Greg Fahy had with Siberian salamanders -- which I found ironic insofar as Dr. Fahy had gotten the salamanders on the basis of Dr. Storey's article. The subject of cryonics came up repeatedly from the questioners surrounding Dr. Storey, so I finally made my identity known as President of the Cryonics Society of Canada and an Officer of CryoCare Foundation. For the most part I was non-confrontational, although I did become irritated by the suggestion that Hitler would have sought to be cryopreserved. I stated that there is no more connection between Naziism & cryonics than between Naziism & heart transplants or any other medical procedure. Dr. Storey was quick to discount the idea that cryonics is a medical procedure, although he accurately stated the view that cryonicists believe that nanomachines will repair the damage. When someone raised the issue of cryonics contributing to overpopulation, Dr. Storey expressed doubt that cryonics would ever appeal to more than a tiny fraction of the population -- a view with which I concurred. St. Storey said Brian Wowk seems to be the most scientific of cryonicists and asked if I agreed. I said that Brian is very scientific, but said that he is not the only cryonicist/scientist. I said that serious scientific work is now being done because serious money is finally being devoted to research. Dr. Storey said that if cryonics research succeeds, his own work will become trivialized, and he would lose funding. Apparently, an interest in organ cryopreservation on the part of funding agencies accounts for a portion of his grants. He clearly had negative views of what it would be like to wake-up in a future society. Not only did he foresee a totalitarian culture, but he didn't seem to like the idea of having to go "back to work". Like so many others, a negative view of the future and of life colors his attitude toward cryonics. He seemed friendly to me, however, and suggested that we exchange business cards. Dr. Storey's website is at: http://www.carleton.ca/~kbstorey -------------------------------------------- Ben Best () http://www.benbest.com/ Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=9055