X-Message-Number: 9445 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:29:14 -0700 (MST) From: Fred Chamberlain <> Subject: Re: Visser Rat Hearts - To Set The Record Straight. Date: April 10, 1998 From: Fred Chamberlain Re: Message #9432 by Robert Ettinger Under the topic: >Subject: MORE PLATT ERRORS One of Bob Ettinger's statements reads as follows: > As to whether our (and Alcor's) support > for Mrs. Visser was "reckless," yet > again, I don't think so, based on what > we knew at the time. It remains true > that recovering beating rat hearts from > immersion in liquid nitrogen was demonstrated > and unprecedented. It may well turn out to > have been a dead end, but the end is not yet. > We still have further research planned. Alcor totally discontinued pursuit of the Visser approach over a year ago. However, the above statement, "It remains true that recovering beating rat hearts from immersion in liquid nitrogen was demonstrated and unprecedented," requires comment. Video documentation revealed, at the time of the demonstrations in February, 1997 (as I have reported on CryoNet before), that the top, shrounded part of a heart claimed to have been fully solidified in liquid nitrogen emerged from the exposure (half immersion) in a visibly "wet" condition. There was a "frost zone" with a sharp boundary zone about half way up the shroud (cloth wrapping of the heart), above which the glistening "wet" appearance of the shroud was identical to the appearance *before* immersion. While there was no thermocouple in this shroud, so one cannot say that the temperature of that part of the shroud was above the freezing point of the cryoprotective solution, appearance clearly indicates that the cold vapor rising from the polyurethane cup used to contain the liquid nitrogen, along with any low temperatures which might be attributed to the interior, did not even "frost" the outer surface of the shroud above the boundary (half way up the shroud.). This was "rat heart number three" on Friday afternoon prior to the 1997 Alcor Cryonics Conference in Scottsdale, Arizona, the case which has been so emphatically described as evidence of a positive achievement. Based on six months of managing, observing and participating in the effort to "make a Visser heart beat", I finally concluded (after the failed demonstrations which took place at the conference) that no further effort whatever was justified to pursue a technique which showed so little promise. As of this time, this is still my conclusion as to the worth of further effort in that direction. I am reluctant to take your time to even read this brief account of a contrary opinion as to the value of the Visser approach, but I cannot in good conscience remain silent, in the context of allegations that something with any well documented scientific validity was achieved. I apologize for introducing negative visions where high hopes were or still are held for a "breakthrough", but we must not kid ourselves, when all the evidence suggests that nothing of the kind exists, particularly where truly promising alternatives are under intensive investigation.. The work at 21st Century Medicine, Inc. (21st CM) is thoroughly documented and its experiments are conducted in a rigorous, "data acquisition intensive" manner which is dramatically different from the manner in which the Visser approach demonstrations were attempted. Just as I observed the Visser attempts, so also I have personally observed, on repeated experiments, what goes on at 21st CM. There is a "night and day" difference in general scientific attitude, in careful and systematic exploration of alternatives, and in rigorous documentation of protocols to be used and results obtained. Each of Mike Darwin's cerebral resuscitation experiments is followed up, if it fails, with a thorough evaluation of possible causes for the failure, and the results are systematically integrated into future trials. In the many experiments which *have* succeeded, follow up and further evaluation (as reported at the 1998 conference on 4/4/98) continues for *months*, to detect long term damage effects which might not be visible over a shorter period of observation. The same quality of scientific rigor is applied to (21st CM's) research in cryobiology and rapid cooldown, as reported by Greg Fahy, and Brian Wowk, at the same conference. I do not have time to enter into multiple interchanges on CryoNet, with Bob Ettinger or others, where the purpose is to argue about the existence or non-existence of scientific promise as regards the Visser approach. For those who have scientific backgrounds, who might wish to further question me on these points, Alcor's toll free line is 800-367-2228 and I would be glad to spend a few minutes on the phone with you, giving you any other insights I might have on these questions. Again, I am sorry to have to introduce any sort of negativism, but such is necessary in the interests of accurately reporting scientific observations. Boundless Life, Fred Chamberlain, President/CEO () Alcor Life Extension Foundation Non-profit; Cryonic Suspension Memberships since 1972. 400+ Members, 35 in suspension as of April, 1998 7895 E. Acoma Dr., Suite 110, Scottsdale AZ 85260-6916 Phone (602) 922-9013 (800) 367-2228 FAX (602) 922-9027 for general requests http://www.alcor.org Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=9445