X-Message-Number: 9622
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:05:47 -0400
From: Thomas Donaldson <>
Subject: CryoNet #9614 - #9621

Hi everyone!

Yes, I'm back. Some comments:
1. I find Mike's discussion very interesting and important. AS I recall,
   Safar himself, a doyen in the field of revival medicine, has as yet
   only reached 10 minutes. And it is important that those associated with
   cryonics not only keep at the forefront of research but if possible
    be even more advanced than others. What BP has done is very important.
2. About what Saul says I have quite complex things to say. First of all,
   I am strongly in favor of research. I feel this way not because I 
   believe that research will save either me or Saul Kent, but because it
   is by doing serious research (of which that discussed by Mike is an
   excellent example) that we can bit by bit improve our own suspensions.
   NO ONE ELSE WILL DO THAT FOR US.

   At the same time I can answer Saul's question, at least for myself. I
   already knew the poor state of many suspension patients. To go through
   that poor state in detail, and perhaps show it to be even worse than
   I thought, tells me nothing fundamentally new. What we must all come
   to understand is that cryonics is a long term project. The argument
   for freezing people with the poor methods used in the past does not
   depend on the merit of those methods but upon the absence of any other
   method AT THAT TIME which could preserve them with better hope of
   revival. That we now understand those methods better and can begin
   to work on improving them. We should do this as well as we can with
   as much effort as we can provide, financially and otherwise.

   We do not improve our present methods by denigrating the honest 
   attempts of those who tried their best in the past. Not only that, but
   even if (say) the Prometheus project succeeds, and in 10 years we 
   learn how to reversibly preserve brains, we will still see people
   who find themselves with the bad luck to need cryonic suspension in
   circumstances in which the advanced techniques found by the Prometheus
   Project simply weren't available. Yes, their suspensions would be 
   poorly done, but that says nothing about whether or not they should
   have been done.

   Yes, part of the work which needs doing is to find ways to DELIVER
   the most advanced techniques. Yet even so, the world is difficult and
   unfriendly: we will still see some so unlucky that primitive means
   are the only ones available in their case. Sure, we can bring that
   probability down, but never to ZERO.

   AS for the growth of cryonics, and the availability of activists 
   of course we will expect activists to slowly disappear. That is just
   what we are fighting against. I would like to see a solid study on
   this point, rather than simple assertions. So long as we can replace
   our numbers, cryonics will continue. Fundamentally, the reason why
   cryonics has grown so slowly may come down to the simple fact that
   there are relatively few of us. Sure, we can look at the world and
   see all the movements which flash into being with millions of 
   adherents. But any movement which requires lots of rethinking of
   just how we run our lives will very likely grow slowly, and cryonics
   is one of them.

   As for ceasing our attempts to acquire new members, that seems to me
   one of the worst strategies available for working towards our 
   eventual success. Certainly, we need to do research, but who is to
   support that research but cryonicists? And yes, we hope that our 
   current research will (relatively quickly in historical terms)
   produce far better suspensions. But historical terms encompass decades
   and centuries, too, and cryonics itself is a very long term project.

   Here is a true story about Canberra, the capital of Australia, where
   I now reside. A major street in Canberra had wide garden areas between
   the lanes which went one direction and those going another. In one
ar area at the center of the city, redwood trees were planted with the
   idea that given long enough, they would provide a magnificent display.
   When I returned to Canberra after many years absence, all of these 
   redwood trees had been chopped down and replaced by pines. Why?
   Because they were not growing fast enough. 

   Even with completely perfect suspensions, the medical conditions 
   causing those suspensions will continue. This is in addition to the
   simple fact that not every suspension will be perfect, even though 
   if the materials and facilities had been available at the time, then
   such a suspension would have been possible. Cryonics by its nature is
   a very long term project. To decide not to continue recruitment AND
   research because they have not yet borne the fruit we had hoped 
   is hardly a recipe for success. We should all learn PATIENCE, above
   anything else. Even small steps forward can go on a very long journey.

			Best and long long life,
					Thomas Donaldson

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