X-Message-Number: 9622 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:05:47 -0400 From: Thomas Donaldson <> Subject: CryoNet #9614 - #9621 Hi everyone! Yes, I'm back. Some comments: 1. I find Mike's discussion very interesting and important. AS I recall, Safar himself, a doyen in the field of revival medicine, has as yet only reached 10 minutes. And it is important that those associated with cryonics not only keep at the forefront of research but if possible be even more advanced than others. What BP has done is very important. 2. About what Saul says I have quite complex things to say. First of all, I am strongly in favor of research. I feel this way not because I believe that research will save either me or Saul Kent, but because it is by doing serious research (of which that discussed by Mike is an excellent example) that we can bit by bit improve our own suspensions. NO ONE ELSE WILL DO THAT FOR US. At the same time I can answer Saul's question, at least for myself. I already knew the poor state of many suspension patients. To go through that poor state in detail, and perhaps show it to be even worse than I thought, tells me nothing fundamentally new. What we must all come to understand is that cryonics is a long term project. The argument for freezing people with the poor methods used in the past does not depend on the merit of those methods but upon the absence of any other method AT THAT TIME which could preserve them with better hope of revival. That we now understand those methods better and can begin to work on improving them. We should do this as well as we can with as much effort as we can provide, financially and otherwise. We do not improve our present methods by denigrating the honest attempts of those who tried their best in the past. Not only that, but even if (say) the Prometheus project succeeds, and in 10 years we learn how to reversibly preserve brains, we will still see people who find themselves with the bad luck to need cryonic suspension in circumstances in which the advanced techniques found by the Prometheus Project simply weren't available. Yes, their suspensions would be poorly done, but that says nothing about whether or not they should have been done. Yes, part of the work which needs doing is to find ways to DELIVER the most advanced techniques. Yet even so, the world is difficult and unfriendly: we will still see some so unlucky that primitive means are the only ones available in their case. Sure, we can bring that probability down, but never to ZERO. AS for the growth of cryonics, and the availability of activists of course we will expect activists to slowly disappear. That is just what we are fighting against. I would like to see a solid study on this point, rather than simple assertions. So long as we can replace our numbers, cryonics will continue. Fundamentally, the reason why cryonics has grown so slowly may come down to the simple fact that there are relatively few of us. Sure, we can look at the world and see all the movements which flash into being with millions of adherents. But any movement which requires lots of rethinking of just how we run our lives will very likely grow slowly, and cryonics is one of them. As for ceasing our attempts to acquire new members, that seems to me one of the worst strategies available for working towards our eventual success. Certainly, we need to do research, but who is to support that research but cryonicists? And yes, we hope that our current research will (relatively quickly in historical terms) produce far better suspensions. But historical terms encompass decades and centuries, too, and cryonics itself is a very long term project. Here is a true story about Canberra, the capital of Australia, where I now reside. A major street in Canberra had wide garden areas between the lanes which went one direction and those going another. In one ar area at the center of the city, redwood trees were planted with the idea that given long enough, they would provide a magnificent display. When I returned to Canberra after many years absence, all of these redwood trees had been chopped down and replaced by pines. Why? Because they were not growing fast enough. Even with completely perfect suspensions, the medical conditions causing those suspensions will continue. This is in addition to the simple fact that not every suspension will be perfect, even though if the materials and facilities had been available at the time, then such a suspension would have been possible. Cryonics by its nature is a very long term project. To decide not to continue recruitment AND research because they have not yet borne the fruit we had hoped is hardly a recipe for success. We should all learn PATIENCE, above anything else. Even small steps forward can go on a very long journey. Best and long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=9622